It is a revelation for many people that the writer has recently moved to the Turkish city of Kemer. In this regard, the “QAZAQ CULTURE” website decided to start the first step of publication with the preface and warm words of a great writer, People’s writer of Kazakhstan, Laureate of the Abai State Prize, Winner of the International “Turkish World Service” award, Honorary academician of the International Academy of Genghis Khan in Ulaanbaatar – Mukhtar Magauin. An interview took a cultural turn. In particular, it seems that we have received the answers to the speculation and other relevant topics of recent times, related to the “Kara zhorga” dance. You can read and rate by yourself!

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: In recent years, the number of those who call the “Kara Zhorga” dance as the generation of Mongols has increased among the Kazakhs. In general, is there any specific data on the history of this dance?

Mukhtar Magauin: Kazakh people had suffered a great catastrophe in the 20th century. The demographic catastrophe and the Famine of 1918, the spiritual collapse, degradation of life all of these occasions had brought a catastrophe for the destiny of the entire Kazakh people that did not happen to any nation before. And then, I think it’s amazing that we got better and became the people again. Also, in this period of famine, there are many forgotten things in the denial of the past due to the Soviet oppression. We haven’t taken a stock yet, and it seems impossible to take the stock. For example, Kazakh crafts and jewelry, not to mention a spiritual life, they have no number in what we have lost. At present, everything that is in the museum is just some kind of remnant of them. Nowadays, many kyuis and songs have disappeared in the spiritual life. It bears noting that Galym Dosken released the collection “1000 Kazakh songs”. If we list a folk song of these “1000 Kazakh songs” collection, then it is worth noting that over half of them were recorded from China. A large number of one million Kazakhs live here, and another million of Kazakh people are staying there. On the other hand, more than half of the new folk songs were recorded in China. The reason for this is forgotten by our side. No matter how many difficulties they went through there, the famine, like ours, was not a mass genocide for them. One of those forgotten things has been the “Kara zhorga” dance. When I remembered myself, the “Kara zhorga” kyui was drawn in our village. Now, it is being released with different music. Moreover, we used to dance a joint dance with the same kyui of “Kara zhorga”. Many people call it as the “Baizhigit’s kara zhorga”. Besides that, the children of the village danced to the “Kara zhorga” as well. Personally, I know one of our relative brothers, the brother of our father, who danced the Kara zhorga, an old man – Zhumazhan aksakal. Once, he came back from China, he lived in Alakol and was hospitalized there. I saw how this old man was dancing in one of his trips to Almaty. At present, they say that “There was no Kazakh people”, because of Russian politics. In addition, some experts state by themselves that the Kazakhs did not have such kyui, it came from the “Kalmyks”. It bears to remind that “Kara zhorga” had been preserved there until yesterday. I don’t know how much time our art historians and researchers will be studying it. For example, in China, a lot of news and information have been filmed up to 17 years. One of them is the television program, called “Passenger”. In this project, the TV host travels around the villages and talks with working people, sitting in a livestock farm. Then, one person is supposed to sing or play one kyui. Then in one village, when an old man turned 82, he was dancing the “Kara zhorga”. “Nowadays, the current generation used to dance the “Kara zhorga” in this way, but in our time this dance was danced differently”. Anyway, many people prefer to dance specifically. Next to the old man, there was also a guy, who had been playing a dombyra. There are so many lost things that need to be collected and turned again for the benefit of our people!

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: It is being said that in the history of the “Kara zhorga”, there were the species like “Roe deer” and “Bear” that previously were ruled by hunters....

Mukhtar Magauin: As I have mentioned just now, “Passenger” is a program that have been filmed in China for 17 years. According to the instructions of the socialist community, it tells about the life and household activities of a stock breeder. At the end of the program, the stock breeder either sings a song or plays the kyui. From this program, I saw very talented and gifted people with great folk songs. Currently, it is not that difficult to find in the archives an 82-year-old man, who danced the “Kara zhorga”. At present, a lot of things remain missing, including the dance and song. We had a wonderful kyuishi, named Baizhigit. He was a great kyuishi. During our childhood, one-out-of-two persons used to play Baizhigit’s “Kara zhorga” in the village. These things were completely forgotten. I am not a music researcher. When we started to wonder where he had gone, a boy named Talas came from our village...

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: Is it Asemkulov?

Mukhtar Magauin: Yes, the boy Talas Asemkulov plays the kyuis. Then, I called him and asked him to play the kyui. At that time, he was 18 years old and studying at the Medical Institute. In fact, he had played about twenty kyuis. Other than this, there is a music researcher named Zharkyn Shakarim. He had also seen him before, and was well acquainted with him. I had no desire to go on TV, but we were supposed to bring Talas on the stage for the sake of kyui. This evening was led by Zharkyn, and I told the story of this kyui, Baizhigit told about the life of kyuishi, and Taras performed about 12 kyuis. After that, under my leadership, we produced the granplasticsimmediately. Between these two, there was a desire to have the second message, another 15 morekyuis, and the second one was recorded again. When they said that they would give it, one of the activists said, “Who is this? Where did he come from? Baizhigit is not the person we have heard of, so where will Kurmangazy stay?” he said. Thus, the second inscription disappeared without looking up from the same page. But now, he performs other kyuis of Baizhigit, and the first performance ofTalas’ kyuis was special. A dombyra of that time has still been standing in our house. An old inheritance is always separate, we need to look for it. I think there is nothing left in our Kazakh landand Kazakhstan. But there are sheep grazing villages in China and Mongolia, including the Kazakh villages, such as Koktogai, Shinkil and Altai. Moreover, the performance of the people on the left side is also excellent.

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: Well, where did the generation dance in these Mongols come from? Why do many people confuse it with the“Kara zhorga” dance?...

Mukhtar Magauin: Many things in Mongolia were formed at different times under the influence of the Kazakhs. The problem is that we are used to saying “No”, no matter what happens. This is a colonial, imperiousness, subordinate colonial consciousness left from the ancient times. We haven’t gotten rid from it yet. These small things happen in the kindred peoples. A long time ago, when I was a child, my father used to say that the dombyra is called “Kobyz” in Kyrgyz nation, and the handle is long in Turkmen people. In fact, do you know where the violin comes from? The violin comes from us. Carpini, Rubruk, Marco Polo, who came to the Empire of Genghis Khan, had taken the example. A violin was formed through the kobyz. There are works of the Russian researchers for this issue. Even, this noodle came from us. Also, it was taken by Marco Polo. The problem is that we are not free from the colonial consciousness, so for everyone our intentions seem low. That’s why, you need to get rid of it. We have become a country, we have become a nation, and we need to enter a new field. It is necessary to find the good things not only on the side of history, but also, on the side of the cultural study. But it’s better to hurry up to cover China.

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: What is the novelty about the Golden Horde?

Mukhtar Magauin: It was a great state and its culture was at a very high level. Thanks to the Golden Horde, the Russian nationality became the Russian. It had shone all over Europe. Eventually, all of this had disappeared, but we still keep their liquids and remnants of the past in the hands of the Kazakhs. Nowadays, the Tatars have done very well in the study of the Golden Horde, but they want to keep everything close to themselves. The Golden Horde had been a great empire, stretching from the Irtysh to the Danube, which went from the Caucasian side to the cold and icy regions. According to this, it had a large-scale culture. Gradually, the things got even worse, however, there was a big story written for all of this. But we have kept the Kazakh base. For the present, the Tatars wanted to cover everything up for themselves, although they had done a good research. I haven’t spread it. After all, how long will it take us to argue, before we can reveal anything? For example, in a great state such as the Golden Horde, the Tatars sat on the Ground only in the hundredth valleys of the former Bulgar ulus (settlement). And, the Kazakh had occupied half of the land of the Golden Horde.

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: Yes, the East side... Overall, what measures should be taken to make our culture and national measures immediately recognizable?

Mukhtar Magauin: It is a good word to showcase the culture for foreign people in the world. But this is not the main problem. The main problem is to master these things by ourselves. First of all, we must recognize ourselves and muster the strength to accumulate. In 1966, when I worked in the “Kazakh literature” newspaper, the editor-in-chief was Nygmet Gabdulin. He brought 28 pages of Bolat Sarybayev’s articles to our editorial office. An article describes all the previously forgotten Kazakh instruments. I knew some of them before. When I wrote my book, called “Kobyz saryny”, I looked at the old literature about the instruments that the narrators and old poets held in their hands.... All of us were reading an article with admiration and presented it to the editor. The head of the department was Saken Zhunissov. Then, there was an editorial board. The members of the editorial board had a strong authority. Akhmet Zhubanov was a member of the musical board in terms of music and culture. After that, Nygmet Gabdulin, as a very broad-minded person with a high level of understanding, gave Akhmet Zhubanov a large article by a good writer and literary critic Bolat Sarybayev. “Look at this, such an article has been received”, he said. At present, this article is considered as a material that made a great discovery and revolutionized the Kazakh culture. An article was reviewed by Akhmet Zhubanov, but he did not like it. He moves on, goes ahead, and got sick between these two environments. Then, he went there after 7-8 months, but returned the article. The situation that I saw with my own eyes, left only three pages from the new 28-page article, and crossed out everything. He left only two instruments, called “Kepshik” and “Sherter”. So as, this is not typical for Kazakhs, he crossed out everything, including the “Cabdigon”, “Zhetygen” and “Syrnai”. And currently, who does believe in this?! Later, Bolat Sarybayev tried to defend his dissertation, and published a book. When he defended his dissertation, he was closing and knocking it down. I have wrote about this in my memoirs about Nygmet Gabdulin. Then, there was the Museum of instruments, which Ozbekali Zhanibek knew a little about, but he was an arrogant man. And, he didn’t like Bolat Sarybayev. Because, Bolat Sarybayev’s instruments were not exhibited in the museum. After all, it turned out that he asked for 5-10 kopecks of money. Sometimes, I joke that this Kozhanasyr said that “Sometimes, a woman needs to be listened to”. His wife wanted to buy 5-10 kopecks for her, where the family collected a lot of tools. Then, she went and estimated all the instruments at only 11 rubles. And, then she did not give. At the end, Sarybayev was unable to defend his new dissertation, and died by himself. I have studied and observed the ancient narrators. They caught the eye immediately. All of them supported Gabit Musrepov, Nygmet Gabdulin, Malik Gabdullin, Beisenbay Kenzhebayev and Alkey Margulan. So, the narrators of folk tales came out. They had a nationwide character. They formed the literature of the Kazakh Khanate’s era. And, this is the work by Sarybayev, as well as the news about the music industry and old instruments. However, this article has choked the same page. Then, they somehow had merged into a row step by step, but it did not immediately become clear that this was news. First of all, it was an insult to the researcher, and secondly, it was an insult for the Kazakh culture as well. Actually, we have many things to deny. Later, when I became the head of the “Zhuldyz” magazine, we invited Shamguan Kazhygaliyev to the “Round Table”. А conversation was about the past and future of the orchestra. It bears to remind that this Shamguan is a very philosophical, intelligent and well-educated person. There I was supposed to ask: “Why not to include the instruments, discovered by Bolat Sarybayev in the orchestra?” There, he stated, “Now, this is a very complex thing, we need to change everything, and we will do it gradually”. So, eventually, Bolat Sarybayev is a man, who revolutionized the Kazakh musicology. I wrote about him that he is a great scientist and the great researcher as well. It bears noting that his work had not been appreciated at that time, and at present, it has not entered the full circulation. That’s what, we need to explore and get to the bottom of it.

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: Your wishes and sincere words for the “QAZAQ CULTURE” website!

Mukhtar Magauin: We have a lot of magazines, dedicated to the history and science, but so far, there is no publication dedicated directly to culture. Not mentioning the works, that have been publishing in a few sources. Currently, our field has been expanded, if there will be a separate website. It is necessary to conduct a lot of research that will determine the history, present and future of Kazakh culture. In particular, it is necessary to provide the new materials about old Kazakh musical instruments as well as the old Kazakh songs. Let the path of the magazine be a valuable and precious place! Furthermore, I think that it is necessary to attract the culturologists as authors, a musician who has a good knowledge and contemplates freely on his own! There should be no pressure, there must be the freedom of opinion. After all this, a real truth comes from the same freedom of opinion.

Serikgul Sultanqazhy: Thank you for your conversation!