It is widely known that the writer recently moved to Kemer, Turkey. In this regard, the "QAZAQ CULTURE" website decided to begin its first publication with a foreword — warm words from the People's Writer of Kazakhstan, laureate of the State Prize named after Abai, recipient of the International Turkish Award "For Merit to the Turkic World," honorary academician of the International Academy of Genghis Khan in Ulaanbaatar, the great writer Mukhtar Magauin. The interview unfolded in a cultural direction. In particular, we received answers regarding recent discussions and other current topics related to the dance "Kara Zhorga." Share your thoughts after reading.

QAZAQ CULTURE: In recent years, the number of Kazakhs who consider the "Kara Zhorga" dance to be a traditional Mongolian dance has increased. Are there accurate records about the history of this dance?

Mukhtar Magauin: The Kazakh people suffered a great catastrophe in the 20th century. The demographic disaster and famine of 1918, a spiritual crisis, and societal decline brought a tragedy that no other nation has endured. And yet, I think it is remarkable that we managed to recover and once again became a people. Now, due to the aftermath of famine and Soviet repression, much of our past has been forgotten or denied. We have not even calculated our losses — and it seems impossible to do so. Our losses are countless, especially in crafts, jewelry, and spiritual life. What is preserved in museums is just a remnant, only a portion. Spiritually, many melodies and songs have vanished. Galym Dosken released "1000 Kazakh Songs." If you tally the folk songs from this collection, more than half were recorded in China. There are many Kazakhs living here, but in China, only about one million. Still, over half of the newly recorded folk songs came from China. This is because they were forgotten here. Despite the hardships and hunger there, there was no mass genocide like what we experienced. "Kara Zhorga" was one of the things forgotten. When I was young, the "Kuy Kara Zhorga" was played in our village. Nowadays, it's performed with different melodies. Back then, the dance was performed to the kuy. Many call it "Kara Zhorga of Baizhigit." The village boys were eager to dance to this beautiful kuy. I knew an elder, Zhumazhan, a cousin and my father's younger brother, who danced "Kara Zhorga." He came from China and lived in Alakol. I saw this elder dance when he visited Almaty. Today, due to Russian narratives, it’s said that the Kazakh nation didn’t exist. Some experts even claim that Kazakhs didn’t have this kuy, that it belongs to Kalmyks or others. That "Kara Zhorga" has survived elsewhere. I’m not sure how deeply our art historians have studied this, but in China, over 17 years, much information has been recorded. One example is the TV program "Zholaushy." They travel to villages and interview herders and workers. Then someone sings or plays a melody. In one village, an 82-year-old elder performs the "Kara Zhorga" dance in a unique way, commenting, “Today people just flail around, but in our time it was different.” A boy with a dombra was beside him. There are many such lost treasures — we must collect and restore them for the good of our people!

QAZAQ CULTURE: Are there variations of "Kara Zhorga" like "Deer" or "Bear" dances in history, since it was once believed hunters performed these?...

Mukhtar Magauin: As I mentioned, "Zholaushy" is a program filmed over 17 years in China. It reflects the socialist society, telling about the life and property of herders. At the end of each episode, a herder sings or plays a kuy. I saw beautiful folk songs and very talented individuals in that program. Finding the archive of the 82-year-old elder dancing "Kara Zhorga" is not hard. But so much has been lost: the dance is gone, the song is gone. We had a remarkable musician named Baizhigit — a great musician. When we were children, every second person in the village performed "Kara Zhorga" by Baizhigit. Now it's completely forgotten. I’m not a musicologist. As we wondered where it all went, a boy named Talas from our village showed up...

QAZAQ CULTURE: Asemkulov?

Mukhtar Magauin: Yes, it turns out the boy was Talas Asemkulov. I later invited him and asked him to perform the kuy. He was 18 then, studying at a medical institute. He performed about twenty kuys. There's a musicologist, Zharkyn Shakarim, who had also known him for some time. I don’t usually appear on TV, but we invited Talas to perform. Zharkyn hosted the show, I narrated the history of the kuy and Baizhigit’s life, and Talas played about 12 kuys. After that, under my guidance, we immediately released a vinyl record. We also planned a second episode with 15 more kuys, which were excellently recorded. But as we prepared to release it, some activists asked, “Who is this? Where did he come from? This Baizhigit is not the one we know. Then what about Kurmangazy?” As a result, the second recording disappeared, never released. Now Talas performs other Baizhigit kuys, but that first performance was truly special. His dombra from that time is still in our home. Ancient heritage always holds a special place — it must be sought. I believe there is little left in Kazakhstan, but in China and Mongolia, in Kazakh villages like Koktogai, Shyngil, Altai — in herding villages — the performance quality is excellent.

QAZAQ CULTURE: And how did the Mongolian dance emerge? Why do many confuse it with "Kara Zhorga"?

Mukhtar Magauin: Much of what exists in Mongolia developed under Kazakh influence. The issue is that we are used to denying everything that is ours — this is colonial consciousness. We still haven’t rid ourselves of it. Kindred nations often have similarities. When I was young, my father said the Kyrgyz call the dombra “kobyz,” and the Turkmen version has a longer neck. Do you know where the violin came from? It came from us. Carpini, Rubruck, and Marco Polo, who visited Genghis Khan’s empire, took an instrument model with them. The violin was based on the kobyz. Russian scholars have written about this. Even noodles came from us — also taken by Marco Polo. The problem is, we still carry a colonial mentality — everything ours seems inferior. We must get rid of that. We are now a country, a nation — we must rise to a new level. We should explore our history and culture thoroughly. But we must hurry to cover China.

QAZAQ CULTURE: What about the Golden Horde?

Mukhtar Magauin: It was a great state with a highly developed culture. Thanks to the Golden Horde, Russians became Russians. It spread its light across Europe. Eventually, it was completely destroyed, but we Kazakhs cling to its remnants. The Tatars have done excellent research on the Golden Horde but want to keep everything for themselves. The Golden Horde was a vast empire stretching from the Irtysh to the Danube, reaching the cold, icy regions of the Caucasus. Its culture was vast. Over time, it disappeared, but it left behind a grand history. We Kazakhs retained its core. Though the Tatars researched it well, they want to claim it alone — but I won’t delve into that. Ultimately, what’s the point in arguing if we can’t settle it? For example, in such a vast state as the Golden Horde, Tatars occupied only one hundredth of the former Bolgar territory. Kazakhs held half the land of the Golden Horde.

QAZAQ CULTURE: The eastern part, yes… Overall, what steps should be taken now for our culture and national heritage to become more recognized?

Mukhtar Magauin: Introducing our culture to the world is a good idea, but not the main issue. The main issue is to comprehend and reclaim what we already have. We must first understand ourselves and gather all that exists. In 1966, when I worked at the "Qazaq Adebieti" newspaper, the editor-in-chief was Nygmet Gabdulin. We received a 28-page article by Bolat Sarybayev. It described many previously forgotten Kazakh instruments. I already knew some of this. When writing my book "Kobyz Saryny," I reviewed ancient literature on instruments of zhyrshy and poets of the past. We were amazed by the article and proposed it to the editor. The department head was Saken Zhunusov. At that time, the editorial board had real authority. The music and culture board included Akhmet Zhubanov. Gabdulin, an open-minded and highly educated writer, said, “Review this — we received such an article,” and passed it to Zhubanov. This article was a revolutionary cultural breakthrough. Zhubanov reviewed it but disliked it. He stalled, fell ill, and returned it after 7–8 months. I saw it with my own eyes: from 28 pages, only three were left. Everything else was crossed out. Only two instruments remained: kepşik and shertter. Kabdygon, zhetygen, syrnai — all were dismissed as un-Kazakh. Who would believe that now?! Later, Sarybayev defended his dissertation and published a book, but he was deliberately blocked. I wrote about this in my memoirs about Nygmet Gabdulin. Afterward, the Instrument Museum's head, Uzbekali Zhanibek, who was knowledgeable but arrogant, disliked Sarybayev and refused to house his instruments in the museum, demanding 5–10 kopeks. I joke sometimes that this simpleton said, “Sometimes you have to listen to your wife.” His wife had collected many instruments, and he wanted 5–10 kopeks for them. He valued the whole collection at 11 rubles. That’s why they weren’t accepted. Eventually, Sarybayev died without being able to defend his dissertation. I studied ancient zhyrshy. Names like Gabit Musrepov, Nygmet Gabdulin, Malik Gabdullin, my teacher Beysenbai Kenzhebaev, and Alkey Margulan — all supported it. Thus, zhyrshy culture re-emerged. Sarybayev’s work was similar in music — a breakthrough. But the article was “suffocated.” Later, others followed, but it wasn’t immediately recognized. First, it insulted the researcher; second, it betrayed Kazakh culture. We still deny many things. Later, when I became editor-in-chief of “Zhuldyz,” we invited Shamghan Kazhigaliyev to a roundtable. The conversation was about the past and future of the orchestra. Shamghan turned out to be a wise and knowledgeable man. I asked, “Why not add the instruments discovered by Sarybayev to the orchestra?” He replied, “That’s a complex issue. We’ll have to change everything, but we’ll do it gradually.” So, Bolat Sarybayev was a man who made a revolution in Kazakh musicology. I wrote that he was a great scientist and researcher. But his work wasn’t appreciated at the time and is still not fully explored. This is what we need to study and understand deeply.

QAZAQ CULTURE: Your wishes and heartfelt words for the "QAZAQ CULTURE" website!

Mukhtar Magauin: We have many journals on history and science, but no publication dedicated solely to culture yet. Culture is mentioned only occasionally. Now, if we have a dedicated site, our sphere will expand. We must write numerous studies to define the past, present, and future of Kazakh culture. Among them, we must provide new materials on ancient Kazakh musical instruments and songs. May this be a successful first step for the magazine! Best wishes — I believe knowledgeable, free-thinking musicians and cultural experts should be involved as contributors! There should be no pressure — freedom of opinion must be preserved. In the end, true truth emerges from freedom of thought.

QAZAQ CULTURE: Thank you for the conversation!